Today through Saturday, I will be over at Josh Marshall’s Talking Points Memo guest-blogging while Josh is taking a well-earned vacation. So please stop by his site–as most of you do already, I imagine–to catch my latest thoughts on things political.
I will be back at Donkey Rising on Sunday with my usual data-obsessed ruminations. For all those who clicked through from Josh’s site to check out DR, I hope you’ll be visiting regularly when I’m back at my regular post.
TDS Strategy Memos
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Editor’s Corner
By Ed Kilgore
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March 28: RIP Joe Lieberman, a Democrat Who Lost His Way
I was sorry to learn of the sudden death of 2000 Democratic vice presidential nominee Joe Lieberman. But his long and stormy career did offer some important lessons about party loyalty, which I wrote about at New York:
Joe Lieberman was active in politics right up to the end. The former senator was the founding co-chair of the nonpartisan group No Labels, which is laying the groundwork for a presidential campaign on behalf of a yet-to-be-identified bipartisan âunity ticket.â Lieberman did not live to see whether No Labels will run a candidate. He died on Wednesday at 82 due to complications from a fall. But this last political venture was entirely in keeping with his long career as a self-styled politician of the pragmatic center, which often took him across party boundaries.
Liebermanâs first years in Connecticut Democratic politics as a state legislator and then state attorney general were reasonably conventional. He was known for a particular interest in civil rights and environmental protection, and his identity as an observant Orthodox Jew also drew attention. But in 1988, the Democrat used unconventional tactics in his challenge to Republican U.S. senator Lowell Weicker. Lieberman positioned himself to the incumbentâs right on selected issues, like Ronald Reaganâs military operations against Libya and Grenada. He also capitalized on longtime conservative resentment of his moderate opponent, winning prized endorsements from William F. and James Buckley, icons of the right. Lieberman won the race narrowly in an upset.
Almost immediately, Senator Lieberman became closely associated with the Democratic Leadership Council. The group of mostly moderate elected officials focused on restoring the national political viability of a party that had lost five of the six previous presidential elections; it soon produced a president in Bill Clinton. Lieberman became probably the most systematically pro-Clinton (or in the parlance of the time, âNew Democratâ) member of Congress. This gave his 1998 Senate speech condemning the then-presidentâs behavior in the Monica Lewinsky scandal as âimmoralâ and âharmfulâ a special bite. He probably did Clinton a favor by setting the table for a reprimand that fell short of impeachment and removal, but without question, the narrative was born of Lieberman being disloyal to his party.
Perhaps it was his public scolding of Clinton that convinced Al Gore, who was struggling to separate himself from his bossâs misconduct, to lift Lieberman to the summit of his career. Gore tapped the senator to be his running mate in the 2000 election, making him the first Jewish vice-presidential candidate of a major party. He was by all accounts a disciplined and loyal running mate, at least until that moment during the Florida recount saga when he publicly disclaimed interest in challenging late-arriving overseas military ballots against the advice of the Gore campaign. You could argue plausibly that the ticket would have never been in a position to potentially win the state without Liebermanâs appeal in South Florida to Jewish voters thrilled by his nomination to become vice-president. But many Democrats bitter about the loss blamed Lieberman.
As one of the leaders of the âClintonianâ wing of his party, Lieberman was an early front-runner for the 2004 presidential nomination. A longtime supporter of efforts to topple Saddam Hussein, Lieberman had voted to authorize the 2003 invasion of Iraq, like his campaign rivals John Kerry and John Edwards and other notable senators including Hillary Clinton. Unlike most other Democrats, though, Lieberman did not back off this position when the Iraq War became a deadly quagmire. Ill-aligned with his party to an extent he did not seem to perceive, his presidential campaign quickly flamed out, but not before he gained enduring mockery for claiming âJoe-mentumâ from a fifth-place finish in New Hampshire.
Returning to the Senate, Lieberman continued his increasingly lonely support for the Iraq War (alongside other heresies to liberalism, such as his support for private-school education vouchers in the District of Columbia). In 2006, Lieberman drew a wealthy primary challenger, Ned Lamont, who soon had a large antiwar following in Connecticut and nationally. As the campaign grew heated, President George W. Bush gave his Democratic war ally a deadly gift by embracing him and kissing his cheek after the State of the Union Address. This moment, memorialized as âThe Kiss,â became central to the Lamont campaignâs claim that Lieberman had left his party behind, and the challenger narrowly won the primary. However, Lieberman ran against him in the general election as an independent, with significant back-channel encouragement from the Bush White House (which helped prevent any strong Republican candidacy). Lieberman won a fourth and final term in the Senate with mostly GOP and independent votes. He was publicly endorsed by Newt Gingrich and Rudy Giuliani, among others from what had been the enemy camp.
The 2006 repudiation by his party appeared to break something in Lieberman. This once-happiest of happy political warriors, incapable of holding a grudge, seemed bitter, or at the very least gravely offended, even as he remained in the Senate Democratic Caucus (albeit as formally independent). When his old friend and Iraq War ally John McCain ran for the Republican presidential nomination in 2008, Lieberman committed a partisan sin by endorsing him. His positioning between the two parties, however, still cost him dearly: McCain wanted to choose him as his running mate, before the Arizonanâs staff convinced him that Liebermanâs longtime pro-choice views and support for LGBTQ rights would lead to a convention revolt. The GOP nominee instead went with a different âhigh-risk, high-rewardâ choice: Sarah Palin.
After Barack Obamaâs victory over Liebermanâs candidate, the new Democratic president needed every Democratic senator to enact the centerpiece of his agenda, the Affordable Care Act. He got Liebermanâs vote â but only after the senator, who represented many of the countryâs major private-insurance companies, forced the elimination of the âpublic optionâ in the new system. It was a bitter pill for many progressives, who favored a more robust government role in health insurance than Obama had proposed.
By the time Lieberman chose to retire from the Senate in 2012, he was very near to being a man without a party, and he reflected that status by refusing to endorse either Obama or Mitt Romney that year. By then, he was already involved in the last great project of his political career, No Labels. He did, with some hesitation, endorse Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump in 2016. But his long odyssey away from the yoke of the Democratic Party had largely landed him in a nonpartisan limbo. Right up until his death, he was often the public face of No Labels, particularly after the groupâs decision to sponsor a presidential ticket alienated many early supporters of its more quotidian efforts to encourage bipartisan âproblem-solvingâ in Congress.
Some will view Lieberman as a victim of partisan polarization, and others as an anachronistic member of a pro-corporate, pro-war bipartisan elite who made polarization necessary. Personally, I will remember him as a politician who followed â sometimes courageously, sometimes foolishly â a path that made him blind to the singular extremism that one party has exhibited throughout the 21st century, a development he tried to ignore to his eventual marginalization. But for all his flaws, I have no doubt Joe Lieberman remained until his last breath committed to the task he often cited via the Hebrew term tikkun olam: repairing a broken world.
Nice resource. Thanks đ
Yes, Bill, the 2000 Florida exit poll informed me of a great many things. The fact that news enterprises misused it to jump to erroneous conclusions about who had won the state in the hours after the polls closed does not detract from the wealth of knowledge contained in the exit poll results.
Ruy, you really need to respond to Bill’s post, I think it’s a great opening to see a fascinating discuss.
Dennis, I think frankly’s got it pretty much right and certainly don’t have much more to add on.
Dennis, as to your question, why pollsters weight for anything, I think the answer lies, at least in part, in the fact that, of course, the techniques they employ do NOT truly create a random, REPRESENTATIVE sample. Asking questions in a phone poll only of those who choose to respond introduces all kinds of biases. I would expect that, simply to adjust for these quite predicable biases, one must start fudging weights in any case (for example, do more women or men answer the phone?)
Even if one had a truly random, truly representative sample, I would expect that weighting the results for known demographic facts — e.g., gender representation — WOULD make for more accurate polls in general. If, for example, in a truly random, truly representative poll 55% happened to be women, and 45% men, wouldn’t it make the poll LESS error prone if those numbers were properly weighted? What the underlying mathematics of this should be left to statisticians, but intuitively it’s pretty obvious that such an adjustment WILL diminish the likelihood of error.
Greg, Frankly: I read the article, but the article didn’t answer my question, which is why weight for anything? I’m basically a math/cs guy, so I take my randomness pretty seriously, and since in a random sample the demographics shouldn’t be too different from what you expect anyway (not to mention that doing things not-entirely-randomly messes up the theorems that make it valid), what’s the reason anyone would weight for anything?
Frankly: I suspect that the idea you had about how weighting must work is true; tossing people out seems to be the best way to preserve the sanctity of the sample, but I’m wondering if it’s more complicated than that.
Sad, Ruy likes soccer đ
Can’t you love Baseball instead? Baseball is the sports of the gods afterall.
Ruy and Josh do different things, providing very different types of information from very different sources, both first class and superb. Some people need to put their sharp tongues back in the sheath and leave them there. How about of bit of civility and respect. Save your knives for Karl and George, deserving beyond measure.
While it’s good that Ruy is sticking to what he knows, it’s awfully boring for a lot of people. So what is Ruy’s opinion on non-poll news? That’s more what TPM is for, and I for one would like to see that.
Dennis,
I do think it makes perfect intuitive sense to weight samples based on hard demographic data in cases in which the relevant classifications of the sampled population is indisputably accurate.
Gender would seem to be such a variable. It’s exceedingly unlikely a poll taker could get such a thing wrong, and it most definitely affects probability of voting preferences. Likewise, geographical classifications would seem to be highly reliable and relevant. Income and age seem to me on the other hand pretty unreliable, given their dependence on self report. Party ID has not only the self report problem, but the more significant problem that it can vary from day to day.
I’m not sure how exactly the “weighting” affects the way in which error and other quantities get calculated, but my guess is that the MOE is very little affected, since it is so highly dependent on the sample size in any calculation. Certainly the MOE’s I’ve seen seem to be directly calculated from the reported sample size, as if no weighting had taken place. Of course, the whole point of the exercise is to reduce the likelihood of error, so I’m not sure quite how to understand all of this.
One question I’ve always had is, how, if these numbers get weighted, do the pollsters come up with the nice integer numbers they do for their polls? Do they gather much larger samples than the numbers reported, and then just throw out, say, a certain number of women if there are too many women? Do they do the same for all categories? Are the integer numbers reported just a convenient fiction, because the floating point numbers genuine weights would impose would be embarrassing to explain to the general public?
Dennis – as the LATimes article stated, political operatives typically like to see polls weighed because they believe that party ID is more fixed and static and therefore, polls need to be adjusted to reflect that view. Independent posters on the other hand, believe that party ID is more fluid and therefore, you might very well find a +13 on Democrat party ID because lately the news have been heavily anti-administration.
(No place to comment at TPM, so I’ll do it here)
Re Fox polling: So, either Fox News’ poll has it right, and Gallup AND American Research Group AND Quinnipiac all have it wrong. Or….
Can someone (preferably Ruy, but I’ll keep checking comments) explain to me why you would “weight” for anything at all in polls? The LA times article linked in the last post says that you shouldn’t weight for party affiliation (i.e. manipulate your sample so you have the “right” number of republicans, say), but it also says pollsters commonly weight for various more stable demographic types (income, for instance). Shouldn’t any kind of weighting at all screw up the simple random sample principle? Or is it just generally supposed that people failing to respond has already messed this up? If so, what does this do to my (previously fairly Chernoff-bound-oriented) understanding of what error means in political polls?
frankly0 – Well said! I think that while guys like Josh serves a great purpose, Ruy is also performing a great service. Bill, if you’re not a stat head, you can always skip past Ruy’s posts. And if you’ve spent any time at all on the EDM site or flipped through the book, you’ll know that Ruy _isn’t_ a journalist like Ackerman and Josh.
bt – i’ve been reading Josh since day 1 and have conversed with him a few times on th subject, when he first started up, the blogging software isn’t as complex as it is today, obviously what someone mentioned earlier about Josh wanting to appear more “professional” has something to do with it but as I said, the main reason why he doesn’t have comments is that his version of the software doesn’t support it.
On all the polling stuff, I wonder why Ruy hasn’t mentioned anything about the poll that Zogby is doing for WSJ, his latest poll showed that Bush has picked up a couple swing states like NV which had previously been for Kerry. I know that Zogby polls favour Republicans slightly too, but I would be interested to see what Ruy has to say about it.
Bill,
If the details of polls aren’t your cup of tea, maybe you should drink elsewhere?
I hate to see someone so obviously unhappy, when remedy is so easy to come by.
Regarding the latest Bush ad: isn’t it hypocritical past the point of the bizarre for the Bush campaign to accuse the Dems of being wild eyed, and out of control in their rhetoric, in the very same ad in which THEY juxtapose images of Adolph Hitler with those of their political opponents?
Ruy, can you do a favor to regular readers of TPM and never come back? Please?
Regurgitating poll data is *not* reporting, and hardly worth commenting upon, unless you are fishing for a job with corporate media–then go for it!. Look at those FOX polls you comment on–do they really deserve so much attention?
I hope you are not as boring a person as you are a writer, with all due respect.
To follow up, I like the way Ruy’s software permits his readers to comment, but without cluttering up the site. It’s easy to bypass the comments for those who want to.
I’d be very surprised if Josh hasn’t wrestled with this issue and he may well have written about his reasons for not doing so previously. (I’ve only been a regular visitor there for roughly this year.) If you’ve got a product that’s in great and continually rising demand, why mess with it? My thought was that given the huge amount of traffic that is there anyway, why let a good chance to facilitate a lot of networking escape?
Oh, and sorry my remarks are off-topic.
This is my first visit to your site. I stop by TPM a few times a week and I’ve enjoyed your guest spot, sitting in for Josh.
I’ll be a regular here now.
Some weeks ago there was speculation about NJ and whether it was a battleground state. I assured you that NJ was solid for Kerry and would be in November. If any of you doubted me, check that campaigndesk.org web site today and see what it says about the polls and NJ. By their logic, NJ is more soldily Kerry this year than it was solidly Gore in 2000. Be of good cheer. I, personally, will continue to work for a Kerry victory this year.
Well Josh, like Queen Sully is a “professional” so its probably just a decision to make his site look neater.
I always figured the mainstream media took you more seriously if you didn’t allow comments đ
I rather like the fact that Josh doesn’t include posting to his site. Helps the site have a good signal-to-noise ratio. Not that I am opposed to comments at blog sites, but given that wealth of opportunity to say my piece throughout the internet, Josh’s lack of commenting seems fairly minor. Of course, if he adds commenting, I wouldn’t object.
Besides, he is very good about responding to email. Over the last couple of years, I have emailed him about half a dozen times, and he has responded every time. Sometimes briefly, sometimes in depth. For me, that’s great. I don’t miss the commenting.
Ron, I agree. I’m regularly amazed at what Josh is able to get into the media and informed public mix traveling outside the DC area barely at all as he does. He obviously works his ass off and has developed great sources.
But, yes, I’ve also wondered why he doesn’t “allow” his fans to respond to his posts and at least have the opportunity to meet and network among themselves through the use of software with the capabilities of Ruy’s site.
Josh’s site, as data he has shared at times indicates, gets an enormous amount of traffic. (rivaled perhaps only by the amount and/or “quality” of traffic here at Ruy’s site)
I hope that when he gets back from his well-earned vacation that Josh will consider the built-in networking opportunities that a change in his software could provide for his many fans, opportunities which could further advance public information and informed debate about the issues he writes about.
Good to see Ruy addressing some positive news for Bush polls.
The trouble with Josh Marshall’s site is that it’s a one-way conversation. I hope people will post comments here.
Ruy,
Do you think the administration’s decision to give AIDS relief to Vietnam (instead of India, China, etc.) has to do with courting the Vietnamese American vote? I didn’t hear any discussion of this in the media.
Consider: Vietnamese Americans tend to be conservative Catholics and past victims of Communist repression, hence wooable by the GOP. While it is true that they are most populous in California and Texas, they’re also a non-negligible presence in quasi-swing states like Virginia, Washington, and Louisiana.
It’s a little far out, but what do you think? (I would have written an email, but I couldn’t track down your address.) Thanks.